He loved policy. No, no. Also fifth, to some degree, Alan Greenspan weighed in, and a view developed that if we tightened fiscal policy, there would be the opportunity to loosen monetary policy. But in any event, there I was, and this guy, as I say, was a master of the game. Whether you had disagreements with him or not, or felt warmly or less warmly toward him or not, he gave you the opportunity to do it, whether youre a Cabinet officer or anybody else. I dont know how many people would have the political courage to do that, but I know I wouldnt have. But its just a reality that in an economy of that size, spending changes arent going to have much effect on the economy; monetary changes can. Id become a pretty active Democrat in New York, particularly active by standards of Wall Street, which still had relatively few visible Democrats in its midst. They have made changes in policy, its not as though theyve stood still. Im just saying that Im a little too close to it because I recall so many of those battles, and I recall so many people feeling that, as you remember, the administration, in some form or other, lost three times, and each time came back with a more conservative version. I was elected twice vice president of my class. No, I went back the next day. He told me that at the very beginning. Now, maybe we caused that. Thats a very important difference, because it addressed healthcare, various items on childrens policy, crime initiatives, urban policythe full span of domestic policy issues, of which economic policy was just one element. He had good relations with certain members of Congress, and we needed that. But, I can tell youa bit of a digression. The entire gamut. Well see whether it lasts or not, but I think Clinton changed the dynamic on worldwide attitudes toward trade opening, and turned trade from an obscure issue that few people in the country paid any attention to, into an important issue and an acceptance of the notion that lowering barriers to trade led to prosperity. which was a separate agency and Presidential appointment. Japanese discussions were harder, but the G7 summit was fine, it was easy. So two points: one, I support what the President did and I think he deserves a lot of credit for it. For other people it was Clintons legendary one-on-one prowess and his effectiveness in small groups, but I dont think theres any one reason why this person or that. Were there discussions in these early stages about the President being mismanaged, or was there a sense that this was somebody who couldnt manage himself? There was quite a discussion that day about long-term interest rates, as I said the credit markets rather than the Fed. The war room was very effective for Clinton, and of course, it was to some degree patterned after the war room in the campaign, which was then the object of an interesting film among other things. Is this time for patriotism? I called him and said Id be interested in helping him in some form if there was a way to do that, and then one thing let to another and I got involved, not long thereafter, in his campaign, both from a fundraising point of view and from the point of view of economic policy and issue development. It was after all largely negotiated by his predecessors, and yet he took a big gamble on that one, too, and thats sort of a kick in the midsection to a lot of his Democratic supporters. Then, in 1995, he formed Evercore. But Lloyd Bentsen was in that league, top five or six or seven. I might have if I had not known Bob Rubin, but I knew him better than anybody else in the administration knew him and I had great confidence in him and knew that he and I would relate well. I cant recall my own platform, and as a result I really cant recall his. A lot of people didnt realize and I didnt entirely realize the regulatory responsibilities of the RTC at the time. I dont know whether his Presidency will be seen as one of the most important or transformative in American history. In part, there was a sectoral approach. But the next day, Monday, I was on a plane to Waco, Texas. But what actually turned out to happen was that each Cabinet officer, or at least many of them, came up with a list of favorite initiatives they wanted. I remember the very stirring tableau as you may remember, the Clintons and the Gores came out onto this beautifully lit portico and there were, it seemed, thousands of people on the street in front of them. Bob Rubin talked with great credibility about the bond market responding, and James Carville was so amusing for so long afterwards saying he wanted to come back in his next life and be the bond market because everybody paid such fealty to it. I thought Perot was a flake, I think Perot is a flake, so I didnt take him terribly seriously. In the 12 years between Clinton and Carter, there had been famous acrimony between the Fed and the White House and the Treasury. You should have asked me about the vote, unless youve already talked to enough people about it. You had the bilateral talks with the Japanese and the G7 format. Were they talking about what you do with Senator X, with Congressman Y? President Clinton gave you the opportunity to serve your country, its a privilege to serve your country. So this is the case where basically hes saying, My Presidency and this party are going to rise or fall based on whether we succeed in this or not. Thats a good point, but thats because there were some people whod been around the track. What did you find on the ground when you got there, if I could? Thats a different issue. Those things were at a peak in 94, just at the time healthcare was on the table. There was also a very memorable event that was held in the East Room of the White House, and recall that within a week or two of this event, Clintons own position on NAFTA was still up in the air. There are too many people in his own administration, at least at the moment, who think that all he finally did was succumb to the Republican position, and anybody who wore a D on his shirt and supported the Republican position could have brought along enough Ds to make the bill happen. They didnt want tickets to the Kennedy Center, they wantedI want this for my tomato farmers, or I want this for my citrus growers. And deficit reduction was his top priority, a focus at the top? We went back to square one. So by the time I had to do it again I wasnt particularly concerned. I recall reading in one account that Clinton had worked on a kind of unusual cluster of issues as a candidate for student body president at the time. Because the opponents had succeeded in changing the question, or framing the question, however you want to put it and that had taken hold in the country and the perception across the entire country, from North to South and so forth, was that this is nationalization of healthcare, which nobody in the United States favors. Was this your first opportunity? I was working on the economic program, I was working on trade and certain departmental matters like Ive just described. The President said to me at one moment when we were alone, and with great heat, he said to me, Roger, you see, theres no constituency at all for Wall Street economics, which is how he viewed his plan, that hed sold himself to Wall Street and you see theres no constituency for that because were about to lose. But yes, we had meetings in his hotel room at three in the morning. I should double-check that. I mean, I just thought he was such a hero. Right. Most of the budget directors thus far, Alice Rivlin, Leon Panetta, Jack Lewwe spent a day with Larry Summers, a number of the political people as well, speechwriters and so forth. Would I have considered moving to Switzerland if he did become President? But as to whether it was an innovation, I doubt it. He was quite in the minority at the time. I was just in awe of people like that. There were some enormous differences. He was a classic, in my book, excellent chief executive. The social aspect of it also involved here? But I was briefed on the procedures the RTC had to follow here. But I dont recall encountering him at all. Roger Altman, chairman and founder at Evercore, discusses the state of the U.S. economy, the four things that need to be included in the next round of stimulus, and Youre only there because he allowed you to be, and you owe him a debt of gratitude for that because without him no service, and without service your life is less. Once again, were grateful for your time. Thats one of the things that kind of surprises. If youre Secretary of X, its pretty easy to become quite happily accustomed to the perquisites of that. Nineteen sixty-seven to sixty-eight, of course, were peak years in terms of the Vietnam War and antiwar activism, but Georgetown was not at all in the center of that. There were some folks from the White House Press Secretarys office who were in it. But it wasnt clear that he was going to do so until not long before he did. Mexican trucking, citrus, tomatoes, Im not joking. We were very explicit. The most frantic imaginable effort was going on during the five or six hours preceding that vote. They talked all the time. We were negotiating a national agreement with the Japanese. Lets recast the question a bit. Im just saying the Japanese side very much viewed it as a zero-sum game, therefore anything we got was, from their point of view, giving up something. More in terms of ostracism from your former colleagues. The New York Times put it on the front page and this giant controversy erupted. But its interesting to put it into perspective. Yes, but typically you wouldnt resort to that with relative stability in the exchange markets, and we did have relative stability. That raises the question then of the people he was meeting with here. I did, not before Congress, before the grand jury. It wasnt evident to me the day after New Hampshire that he had recovered from it. It was just not the way to run the railroad. Well, there was, like most administrations, kind of a running shakeup. Stay as long as you can figure out how to cling to it. The second point is the nature of the key individuals chosen. The office on Vermont Avenue probably opened between two and three weeks thereafter, lets say, picking a time, the 25th of November, just guessing, 20th to 25th. In other words, all the work that goes in before its actually sent to the Hill. But it really was quite effective because one needed a military-like approach with only five or six weeks to go, and that bill was in trouble. I believe it was a five-year statute of limitations and the expiration date was January 94 or February or something like that. He thought he could win over the majority of the Democrats, for example in the House, on NAFTA. It should have been, I suppose, more evident at the time, but such things never are. What did you mean when you said, I knew how not to do it? Mr. Clinton became aware of that. Sure, but I dont feel we can claim tremendous credit for much of that. In the spring of 1991, I think it would have been May or June, we had the chance to have a talk here in New York, and I then talked to him by phone. You were in Tokyo when the President went over? It turned out that the thing had really been left by the wayside and there was very little of the necessary planning that had gone into it and it was about two months off. In fact, Carters very first initiative was his stimulus program, neither of which incidentally succeeded, both of which were dropped and failed entirely. So you can imagine sitting next to Mrs. Clinton at dinner. How early were you beginning to get a sense that the Republicans were going to be an historically difficult problem for this President? Well, if you were to ask me for a moment when looking back on it, one could perhaps see that we were moving into a new period of partisanship, I would have chosen instead the [Robert] Bork battle, which I think changed quite dramatically the whole process on Supreme Court nominations and the grounds on which they were debated. He may be forever seen in the middle. Under the normal circumstances, like Clintons, they have considerable difficulties in an adverse political environment to get anything done, and that is the more normal historical situation. But that battle was resolved in favor of the revolution, the most sweeping alternative, and I dont really have a lot to add beyond whats been written. I dont know why we were the earliest on the list. So there were a couple of weeks of high anxiety, maybe more than that, maybe everybody was in a state of anxiety between the election and yes, it wasnt at all clear who the Secretary of Treasury would be. We had had recent experience in which the President of the United States took very strong actions against the Japanese, with these agreed-upon quotas for U.S. exports, exports in autos to the U.S., I dont quite remember how longThat was negotiated certainly over the wishes of the Japanese but less than ten years. Once she was put in charge of it, it obviously had tremendous internal focus. It begins I think with the economic and fiscal circumstances that the administration faced, and two in particular. Greenspan sat next to Mrs. Clinton. But the key revelation was the most stimulative thing we could do for this economy is to induce a monetary response. You may remember that Clinton put forward a white paper, if I can call it that, called Putting People First, which came out I believe at the end of 1991. The notion, by the way, in Bob Woodwards book, The Agenda, that Greenspan was hovering over the proceedings like an angel of death is completely fictitious. That was my third or fourth trip, in 93. No, not at all. We can go into that in a little more depth, the pure politics part of it. Lloyd Bentsen was the very first person we tried when this whole project started, on the urging also of Clintons people because of his age, and they didnt know at that time that he was as ill as he was. Am I misremembering, did the President invite Mr. Greenspan, to sit in the gallery next to his wife when he delivered his economic policy. He knew the rhythm, so to speak, of the Democratic Party, including in New York. One of the many stunning things about it is the fact that none of those Republicans paid a price of any kind for that. Well, I recall particularly how weak the field was. So were in a partisan phase. Now I did not attend that, but the issue of the Presidents economic plan and whatever adjustments were going to be made and the efforts to push it forward were discussed, perhaps in most cases the number one item, at the senior staff meeting each day. This had been the thrust of the campaign, so expectations were very high that Clinton would come forward with a real economic program, a comprehensive program, and from the moment that all these folks were chosen the question was, what is that program going to be? We came up with a Btu [British thermal unit] tax. Some of thats a function of, for lack of a better word, the culture within the group of people who worked in this administration, so that there is no penalty paid, in effect, among your former colleagues for being outspoken or saying something in the press critical to the President. Somethings pretty strange here. Well, it was supposed to become the law of North America on January 1st, wasnt it? He seemed very tired, I remember that. I respected him, but I never identified with him and I didnt see him being a successful Democratic nominee. A lot of kids who went to Georgetown were interested in having a good time, and most people who went to Chicago were really serious about their academic pursuits and the world around them. The RTC had to choose between allowing the statute of limitationsto expire; filing charges, criminal charges; or, as often happens, entering into a so-called tolling agreement, where if youre the party under investigation, you voluntarily agree that the RTC can circumvent the statute of limitations because you believe that if they have more time theyll ultimately decide to exonerate you and you dont want them to be forced to make a decision about filing or not filing charges. But thats an example of the type of stuff the Deputy Secretary does. No, this was in December. In all aspects? Of course we learned quickly that these were really difficult negotiations. Did you think that they took those claims seriously, or was this pure politics? We had a couple hundred people there. Youve been good to give us so much time. He was clearly learning as he went. The Wall Street Journal reporter says to Secretary Bentsen, Mr. Secretary, if you were in the Senate, would you vote for the Presidents healthcare bill? I want to ask you a general question since youve raised the Carter precedent again here.And that is, we get the perception in talking with some people that there was a conscious effort on the part of senior-most advisors to President Clinton not to reach out and rely on a lot of people that had Carter-era experience in the Presidency. I dont think I would have known otherwise. As far as healthcare versus welfare reform? The Clinton years were not in any respect unique from that point of view, but that partisanship for some reason or other seems to go in cycles and we just happen to come into office at a time when the cycle was moving up in terms of the scale of partisanship. Ill never forget, it was just a few days after the election and Carter, of course, had been beset by the Iranian hostage crisis and the failure of Desert One and so forth, the rescue effort. I had known him just slightly. No. Can you talk about Perots influence on the campaign? But the presumption was that the head of the agency of course did know that. Panetta had made a very distinguished career as House Budget Chairman out of pushing for lower deficits and a more transparent budget process. The first thing that we typically do is a quick voice identification so that the transcriptionist will know whos talking at any given time.Im Russell Riley, the project leader for the Clinton Presidential History Project. That process had been going on. So he chose someone who not only had a great reputation and tremendous stature, but who could particularly help him with Congress, and it was a shrewd choice. I dont recall precisely, but Im sure Im right that Clintons standing in the polls was ebbing. I mean one of the oldest rules of Presidential management is, take your pain up front. Anyone who does that indeed does not know what he is doing, and its the equivalent of Economic Policy 101. Web(Studio: Charles Gibson) Earlier interview held with Evercore Partners Roger Altman about the House vote and the market reaction. It was a very unusual evening, because there was a sense, as I say, we were interring the candidate. I dont question the sincerity of every opponent. No, he doesnt, not in terms of the way I would define close friends, genuine friends. If you think about it, it makes lots of sense. Casey resigned and it was vacant. The phone rang and I was told by the Under Secretary for Enforcement that there had been a raid by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms on a complex in Waco, Texas, which had gone terribly wrong. But for reasons I dont fully understand, it goes in cycles, and we came into office at a time when an up cycle so to speak on partisanship was asserting itself. There were those obviously who felt the most important thing was to get the deficit down. We were both quite active in student government. But I interpreted that to mean, Maybe you should, because I felt that if he thought I shouldnt, hed say so. I think I testified before the Senate for about thirteen consecutive hours and six or eight hours on the House side the very next day. As I recall, the distinctive thing about Clinton, if everyone had one courageous stand, his was on free trade. But absent such a crisis, history tends not to treat you as a great President. I think he saw the political opportunity presented by that in addition to the basic merits of NAFTA. It wasnt so much between the political peopleReich wasnt a political person; he wasnt a campaign operator. What political or personal characteristics does she have that he doesnt have, what does she bring to the. Not surprising, given his state of origin. He is the only person who has declined because of heath reasons and we wont have the opportunity to talk with him. It was sort of all-encompassing. Can you tell us about that? Then, that sent the ball in motion so to speak, in terms of that being the focus of discussion, although the senior members of that group were pretty united on the fact that we should make a real effort on the deficit. I think if Edmund Morris were writing with that skill about the Clinton years, hed have a whole chapter on the vote on this plan. The House voted first, and on the day of the House vote we didnt think we had the votes, or at least we thought the odds were too high that we would lose. But my first point is that that entire team was out there promoting the Presidents economic package, both crisscrossing the country for that purpose, speaking, visiting Congressional districts and so forth, testifying on it of course, visiting one-on-one with members of Congress. In fact, the exact oppositethe people who voted for it were punished in 94. WebKathryn Reed Altman and Roger Altman attend State of the Union Dinner at The Re-Opening of the Plaza Hotel Ballroom on January 28, 2008 in New York Roger Altman and Mayor Michael Bloomberg attend THIRTEEN and WLIW 21 Annual Gala Salute at Gotham Hall on April 30, 2007 in New York City. But there was the sense, based on conversationsI think you could go back and say that there were some discussions between Bentsen and Greenspan, Rubin and Greenspan, Clinton and Greenspan, although the sum total of those conversations probably took an hour. Japan accepted a series of goals that we wanted them to accept, but the teeth, in terms of enforcement, werent there. Its curious to me, but thats how it worked. You couldnt do that. Then, as the weeks and months went by, it came closer and closer and closer to whip counts. You look at the turnover that she hador in her case did not haveon her staff, and the turnover that he had. Thats the way to do it. We talked a lot about the organization of economic policy-making and the role of the Treasury because I had a certain history. That wasnt a very long meeting. I think so, yes. Bentsen had told me from the first moment this thing was going nowhere. I believe it was the same night that she gave her press conference. It struck outsiders as the administration never passed up an opportunity to say, This is the preserve of the Federal Reserve. NAFTA had much broader support among the so-called or self-styled elites, the business leadership, all the economics community, the foreign policy establishment. So its a free vote, ideologically and politically. Andrew Garfield presented the Robert Altman Award at the 2022 Film Independent Spirit Awards to his old friend, Fran Kranz, for his film Mass. Mr. Altman returned to Washington in 1993 to serve as Deputy Secretary of the U.S. Treasury for two years. Some time around 1989 or so, Hillary Clinton went on the board. But anyway, in retrospect it was a very bad idea. I mean, its amusing in a certain sense, but of the hundred members of the Senate he probably talked on any kind of regular basis to about ten. Weve talked about the general idea that the administration was going to accept pain by having deficit reduction in the early years, but theres still the question of how youre going to mete out the pain. The vote was really the most dramatic moment I ever experienced in six-and-a-half years of government service. So I served in that job for give or take a year, and I never had a single meeting on an investigation nor did any of my predecessors, just wasnt done, wasnt necessary, and so forth. Do you have any recollections of seeing anything different in him as a candidate at that point for that position? I got involved in certain aspects of preparing it, editing it, fine-tuning it, I recall that. Oh yes, sure. I mean, to give you an example, wed been in office I think several days, and the Sunday after the inauguration I was sitting at home in New York because my family hadnt moved yet. But I was to be sure, no matter what they asked me, guns? But why was it bloodless? My testimony was rather a highlight of that. Are we missing anything in terms of your responsibilities? I went to Wall Street after the University of Chicago, and then after seven years on Wall Street, I went into the [Jimmy] Carter administration as Assistant Secretary of the Treasury. There are some very famous stories about Bentsens war experience. So there are the four main elements. Nothing, zero, never did, never would have. We cant afford to lose it, that type of stuff. But I think he may turn out to have transformed the party, which really is an important historical achievement. I can vote against it, tell my constituents Ill never support a tax increase. Which did he bond most closely with and were there instances where there were tough nuts for him to crack? Its actually enjoyable, its fun. Had run successfully for Vice President. She may have had a lot of influence on it, but I didnt see her. 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